07-Aug-89 22:57:50 Thread Sb: GAYDAR, A Manual Fm: MARK To: ALL Well, I got some Email today from someone I hadn't corresponded with before. I checked the user ID and I don't think that he has been on here before, but with so many people here now, it is quite possible that he has, and I just don't know it. Anyway, he asked me if I could go into a bit more detail about GAYDAR, and I think that this really needs more thoughts than mine. All comments will be appreciated! Let me start out with a disclaimer. Although I now make extensive use of my gaydar, the only reason why it works for me is that I trust myself, and I have now had, shall we say, a considerable amount of experience with various parts of the Gay community (Slut Sister that I am ) With that out of the way, lets take a walk down the list of things that I look for when determining that someone else is Gay: 1) Appearance. Most Gays who wants to make a favorable impression on others will dress well, be clean, and have a nice sharp hair cut. Here, the hair and cloths are the key for me. I have found that it is usually Gay men that start a trend or style. On my various trips to the bars and just out in public, I can tell whether a Gay man is open to others about himself, or still in the closet. We have style. Most straight men I know do not. One friend of mine, who was with a group of straight men, ran into another business person at one of the gay bars they were staying near while at a conference. The other man said he know that my friend was Gay because he was the best dressed of that group of men. 2) Gay men tend to hold eye contact and shake hands longer than non-Gay men. Salesmen also do this, so be careful. I was at a review of our insurance recently. My company is looking into a 401K plan. The salesman who was trying (continued...) Fm: MARK To: MARK (...continued) to sell the plan to us (we should have one by the end of the year.) spent 60% of the presentation talking to me (excessive eye contact) and only 40% of the time talking to the three other members of my company. I was not the decision maker on this one! I tell you, he was one cute guy, and I found it difficult to keep my composure, but I managed to suffer through it. We knew what was going on, but the others in the room had no idea. He made a point to go out of his way to say good-bye to me when he left. As I never mix business with pleasure, that was the end of it, but =I= know he is one of us. I have no absolute proof, but I also had no signals telling me other wise. 3) Watch the man you suspect may be Gay. When no one is with him, does he pay that much attention to women? If you find that he pays more attention watching other men, well, isn't that what you do? 4) Another clue - is the man married? Many Gays do marry, but any man who reaches 28, is not married, and does not date much if at all, is most likely one of us. 5) If you are open and accepting about yourself, do you feel =very= comfortable in his presence? If you are closeted and don't want anyone to know about you, are you nervous in his presence? I have found that I am very at ease with myself in another Gay man's presence. These are just some of the things that I look for. I never sat down and tried to list them before today, but there are a lot of things. I didn't bring up one very controversial issue here, but what the heck, why not. (continued...) Fm: MARK To: MARK (...continued) 6) Some men are a bit "effeminate". Some very, some a bit, some not at all. The way they hold a glass or cigarette. The way they position themselves when they sit or stand. I don't mean they have to be "swishy" or anything like that, these things I notice are =very= subtle. 7) Some men realize that in order to pass for "straight", they must take part in conversation with other men about women. To blend in, they make the usual comments, but with a twist. Instead of talking about women, they seem to talk about the idea of women, as if a relationship with a woman were more of an abstract idea. 8) Overly friendliness of a stranger. I remember starting a conversation up with someone I met outside my apartment building during a small fire once. I read the signals, determined he was Gay, and we had a nice conversation. Not about anything important, just stuff. We separated and ended up seeing each other again in the lobby, which was full of people waiting to get up to their apartments after the fire was out. During the previous conversation, I read all the signals, but here in the lobby, He didn't give off a single one! Sure enough, I saw him at a Gay bar a few weeks later. That's how I met, now one of my closest friends, Enrique! 9) Smiles. They are my favorite! Well, those are a few of the things that I see from time to time. I'm sure that there are many more, but as it is, this message is going to take up four screens. I think it is very important that it is not necessary to see =all= these signs in one person. Usually, I will only notice one or two things from this list. But the things I notice are strong. I must say (continued...) Fm: MARK To: MARK (...continued) that I have never been proven wrong when I have made a "sighting", so to speak, but then many times, I have not been proven right either. The signals I see are not usually notice by so called "straight" people, and I have to say that in order for my GAYDAR to receive, the signals must be sent. If not consciously, then subconsciously. Of course, to encourage them, I send signals out all the time! Well, that's about it for now. I can only say that while these work for me, they may not work for anyone else. How do you confirm a sighting? Well, what ever you do DON'T ask them. That is a very rude thing to do, and if you are wrong...? I hope that helps my mystery writer. I would hope that he will respond here on the board, but if he wants to, he can still email me. How about some more ideas from you other guys out there? Hugs, Mark Fm: Mark F. To: MARK Mark- One signal I look for ( I haven't proved its accuracy yet, though) is the extent to which a person lets someone else of the same sex invade their "comfort zone". Naturally, you can only use this one if you are talking to a person or see them with someone else of the same sex. I think that instinctively most straight men will move away slightly if you invade their personal space, probably without even thinking about it. Therefore, whenever I see two guys walking "too" close together, my GAYDAR starts beeping. Your signal about strangers being friendly reminded me of something that happened about 3 years ago. I was on a plane from Sacramento to Phoenix and we had to be re-routed through Ontario. I was sitting next to this cute, All-American type guy and struck up a conversation with him. When we got to the Ontario airport, he bought me dinner in one of those expensive airport snack bars. When we got on the plane to Phoenix we were seated away from each other, unfortunately. As we were approaching Phoenix, I pulled out my business card to write my number on the back and was debating whether or not I should give it to him. While I was thinking, he came over to my seat and gave me his number! Unfortunately, nothing ever came of it because I was involved with someone else at the time and I was also a bit more timid and less trusting of my instincts. I think that all of us have GAYDAR to some extent or another, we just have to learn to trust it. -Mark Fm: Tom Pace To: Mark F. Hi, I just logged onto this for the first time and wow am I impressed! I've been on CI$ for over a year now and never knew! In the August edition of 'Online Today' on pg. 47 is a blurb for both issues-17 & hsx-100. I remember reading in the advocate a while back about some flairup of tempers in regards to no Gay forum and almost cancelled my CI$ because of it. Glad I didn't! In regards to GAYDAR, my lover of 5 years is excellent at the 'ol detector, while mine is somewhat off. I suppose it might be from being in the military for 6yrs (civilian since '82) might have left a streak of paranoia in me. That or maybe from growing up in a small town in Tenn. ? I have to disagree with the 'personal space' theory though, because I move away from people when they invade my 'zone'. I'm afraid I might embarass them! I've been out since age 15 (now 32) and I still feel uncomfortable at times when I don't trust my 'GAYDAR'. It is a fascinating phenomena, I believe there is some subconscious stuff going on when it is functioning. My other half has surprised me more than a dozen times when his observations have turned out correct. (Like the 2 cuties down the hall had me fooled until they took us to the Gay Softball League!) Love, kisses & hugs from a refugee in San Francisco, Tom P. P.S. Some quake last night! Not that the Earth hasn't moved for me before ! Fm: MARK To: Mark F. Mark! Gosh, I feel like I'm writing to myself or something! You are definitely right about the "comfort zone"! I read somewhere that most Gay bars are actually designed so that you =have= to move close to one another if you can move at all! In the non-Gay world, man to man closeness is discouraged, but in our world, it is encouraged. Loved the story about your airline companion. I'm surprised that you two didn't find some sort of reason for a seating change! Trusting your own feelings is very difficult for a lot of us here. I'm lucky, in that I usually do trust myself and my instincts. I think that has had a =major= positive effect on me which is why it has been so easy for me to come out this year. People still tell me that they are so surprised at the drastic changes they have seen in me when they compare me now to the way I was before. (All for the better, I hope ) Hugs, Mark Fm: :: Roy R. :: To: Mark F. Mark(s), Another signal that's often present, but is hard to define, is the so-called "gay accent." It's a certain melody or lilt to the voice...some syllables are drawn out longer than is usual. You could compare it (in its exaggerated form) to the Bette Davis rendition of the word "Daaaahling!" I'd say that about 75% of open gays show some sign of "the accent." I've heard it all over this country and in Europe - I'm beginning to think it's genetic. I hope Scott S. joins in on this topic - he's the Henry Higgins of gay accents. That brings up something else - a lot of gays seem to be inordinately fond of theatre and musicals. Not only the current stuff, but things that were popular even before their adulthood. Next? Hugs, Roy Fm: Mark F. To: :: Roy R. :: Roy- I agree about theatre and musicals (and music in general); I don't think I've ever seen more "family" in one place than when I was Phantom of the Opera in L.A. in June. We are also very much in attendane whenever I go to the symphony. Also in conjunction with music, there's the affinity that many gays seem to have for music by Judy, Barbra (pronounced Baaaabra), Bette Midler, etc. And yes, I think there is a gay accent also. Besides drawing some syllables out, there is also a tendency to place undue emphasis on at least one word in each sentence (e.g. "Oh REALLY? We MUST go there sometime!"). - Mark Fm: :: Roy R. :: To: Mark F. Mark, When Tyne Daly previewed her production of _Gypsy_ in Mpls. last month (opening in Nov. on B'way - don't miss it!) at least one-fourth of the audience were male couples. As to the symphony, I don't see that high a representation here, but we are definitely in the audience. On that subject, do you know the young (and very cute) Viennese conductor Karl Sollack? He's an asst. conductor of the Wiener Staatsoper. He's conducting some during our Sommerfest season. When he walked on stage last week, he sent my GAYDAR needle spinning around the dial. I'm certain he's one of us. (Which would explain why he's so talented. ) Baaaabra and Bette are long-time favorites of mine - long before I even considered coming out. Wonder what it is about them? Quentin Crisp has a great description of "the accent" in his _The Naked Civil Servant_, but I'm damned if I can find the reference. Hugs, Roy Fm: Mark F. To: :: Roy R. :: Roy - I can't say for sure what it is about Bette and Barbra. In Bette's case it could just be her often outrageous personality - that and the fact that she first started her career in the gay bath houses of New York. As far as Barbra goes, I hadn't been a fan until just recently (I bought her latest album because she does one of the songs from Phantom of the Opera). This all reminds me of a verse from a song by Romanovsky & Phillips: Don't own a single record by Barbra, Bette, or Judy Heard of Bette Davis, but never saw her movies Guess I'm irresponsible, it seems I've shirked my duty What kind of self-respecting fa**ot I'm I? - Mark Fm: Allen To: Mark F. I strongly agree about the "accent." I constantly bitch to my boyfriend about that damned lilt in his voice. He gets all demonstrative and flips his hands around, and my GOD but the way he can whip that old cigarette about with a backhand flip that would earn the envy of Bjorn Borg!! I don't know what enoyment he derrives from that silly queer talk when he knows it just p@sses me off. But I notice that lot's of "us" do it. Maybe we all just have "camp" in our blood? Fm: Skip D. To: MARK Hi Mark, In reading your message about Gaydar, one question came to mind...does your company already have a 401K plan? If not, do they currently have any kind of pension plan? What kind of insurance benefits do you offer? Do you offer an HMO as an alternative? Anyway, all seriousness aside. You left off an issue in scanning for Gays that is very important to me, and that is: Take a man's word on his sexuality. If he says he's Gay, accept it, even though he may just be bragging, . If he says he's straight, don't try to pull him out of the closet, or play games. It can be a big waste of time, can interfere with a possible friendship, and can do psychic harm to someone who is not ready to come out of the closet. If you think someone is closetted, and it matters to you, just try to be a good Gay role model, but let him come out in his own time. Hugs...Skip Fm: MARK To: Skip D. Skip, You've made an excellent point. I sort of ducked that issue when I said whatever anyone does, don't ask someone if they are gay, that is, unless they are a close friend. If most people want you to know about their sexuality, they will let you know. I liked the part of being a good role model. We never seem to have enough of them. Hugs, Mark Fm: MIKE H. To: Mark, I loved your GAYDAR, A Manual and have a printed copy to save. I could have not put together such an organized, inciteful list but I do want to comment on one item. And that is your #1 on appearance. I personally find this to be of little help to me when I use my "GAYDAR". Maybe it's because here in Ohio (off the beaten yuppie trail) that gays don't put as much emphasis on clothing as the trend-setters in the larger metro areas of the U.S. In fact, as I recall the gay acquaintances I have met in the past year, on the first encounter, I now see that the clothing was not a tip-off. Cleanliness yes. Sharp haircut - not really. My guess is that clothing is more important to GAYDAR in a place like D.C. or NYC than in the midwest (at least in smaller towns). I do agree with your other points - my personal favorite is eye contact. And also where the eyes my roam. For me this is the most important indicator of all. So often when you start a conversation with a "possibility", it only takes a moment to notice the eyes starting to move around the body without embarassment - especially around the -er- bult buckle area. This is so common for my experiences. Maybe I hang around with a different crowd or something. I try to only hang around the park one day a week!!!! Seriously does any of my thoughts ring any chimes with you? Mike H. . . P.S. Of course before a stranger and I talk, the smiles and the "friendliness" appearing in the face are very important to the fact that we are gonna talk. Fm: jack To: MIKE H. Hi Mike: I agree with your comment about watching eyes. I will have to go back and check out the thread about gaydar. Jack Fm: MARK To: MIKE H. Hi Mike, I guess if I went to the park a lot, I wouldn't see many trend setters! Did you mean that when you said you go out to the park a lot? I think that things may be a bit more discreet in the country. Eye movements (what he's watching) says volumes about one's interest! Where you watching me? Hugs, Mark Fm: MIKE H. To: MARK Mark, I was only teasing about the park but I was serious about the eye movement in my message. I don't care if I am at a sporting event, a fair, on a military base or at the local grocery - it all applies. The eyes of a stranger has to be # 1 in my personal GAYDAR manual. It just says so much... The other things on your checklist are on secondary importance and are used for further examination if I feel like I would want to know more. Often I don't wish to pursue my hunches cause of various reasons such as the guy turns me off by his appearance or I don't have the time right then. Yes Mark I was giving you the eye treatment. And I have the time and you certainly don't turn me off - oh Mark did I mention that you are wearing one beautiful belt buckle? If you don't mind, may I examine it more closely? Mike H. Fm: Alan To: MARK Mark, In reading your GAYDAR Manual, I became aware of some of the signals to watch for to identify gay men in my surroundings. When I mentioned that I would "try to act upon them", I meant that when my GAYDAR reacts and when I see someone that I would like to know better, I must act upon those hunches and desires. By ignoring the directions provided by my GAYDAR, I have been missing many opportunities for what could have been very happy times. Nothing's going to happen if I remain on the sidelines watching life go by. I want to act upon my feelings and hunches, take risks and go for it (i.e. living fully as a gay man). I have already taken the first tentative steps and will continue to forge ahead and "act upon my true self". Thanks for the hugs...they feel soooooooo good. Hugs back...tightly... Alan (G.) Fm: MARK To: Alan Hi Alan, I'm happy to see that my Manual might be of help to you, but I have to say that it is not really my manual. I merely wrote down a few thoughts at someone's request. That's all they are, thoughts. If there was ever a real manual, I have no doubt that someone would be making a fortune in royalties. I was a bit hesitant about posting that message as I had thoughts of some of our more closeted brothers walking up to strangers and asking if they were Gay! How silly my thoughts were! Actually, I use my Gaydar to identify those that I my wish to know better. If they are Gay, I would find out eventually, and if they are not, well, that's OK too, isn't it? Your message has touched me in that I used the same terms here about 5 months ago. I, too, was living my live on the sidelines of Gay life. I was not an active participant, and felt like the world was passing me by. I, too, made the same decision as you then. I do live my life as an open Gay man, and I am also proud of it! I guess that I went from being on the sidelines to being part of the team! That is a decision which I do not regret at all. Even though there are those out there who will a a difficult time, and may have to write off some of their family and friends, to live life for yourself is what it is all about! To live life for others is a lie. Alan, you should not be surprised if people you know tell you that you seem to be more cheerful than you used to be. That has happened to me many times, as those that I know can see the marked difference in my attitude. I hope the same is true for you. My best to you, Hugs, Mark Fm: Alan To: MARK Dear Mark, I admire you (and envy you) for everything that you have accomplished in the past five months. You certainly have come very far. My journey (the definitive one) has only begun a few weeks ago. As you mentioned, people around me have already begun to notice a difference. They do not yet say that I am more cheerful but rather that they don't know me anymore. I guess that's to be expected at this early stage and actually, they are quite perceptive as I don't recognize myself anymore either: I like the new me (or at least who I'm becoming) a whole lot more. It's these positive feelings about myself that I have to work on if I want to progress further. I'll keep you and everyone else posted... Thanks again for the support. Warm embraces. Alan (G.) Fm: MIKE H. To: MARK Mark, If I can find the time to write my own version of the GAYDAR manual, I will gladly ship you a copy. Most of us have used GAYDAR for a long time, only calling it a hunch or educated guess - but now thanks to you this process has a name - GAYDAR. This word has become part of my everyweek vocabulary and my close friends already know the word (close GAY friends that is). Thanks Mark for your response (and I still like your belt buckle). Mike H. Fm: :: Roy R. :: To: Skip D. Skip, From what I hear, W.S. is feeling =everybody's= oats. Isn't part of coming to terms with being gay the fact that we recognize that the gender roles we were taught to revere are in fact, nonsense? I mean, is it really important that I learn how to shoot a duck, or outwit and defeat another man? Isn't it alright for me to enjoy plants, using my own sense of style to decorate my home, or to cook well? Those are things that have to do with roles we've been taught. They just aren't part of our innate sexuality, IMO. As gays, we are free to let go of some and adopt others. I think thats what scares a lot of non-gays. And if W.S. carries it to some campy end, more power to the b!tch! Hugs, Roy Fm: Skip D. To: :: Roy R. :: Hi again, Roy, In my home, we were not taught much about gender roles. My mother worked and that was never questioned. I was bad at sports, as was my father. My dad did some of the cleaning and cooking. I cooked. My sister was good at sports. Anyway, the only real gender training I ever had was a great deal of pressure from my parents to behave in a masculine manner. Until I was in the ninth grade, I was very effeminate. We are talking 'Truman Capote,' and I am not exaggerating! When my voice changed, I changed many of my mannerisms, so I come off to some as 'normal,' , and to others as stilted. Many of these mannerisms are the way that I really am. They are no longer affectations, they are real. But now I'm feeling a little freer to let things out. For example, using my hands when I talk...my mother always discouraged that, so I stopped doing that. Now, it's happening on its own. I plan to just let these things happen, and to just be me. Boy, why have you gotten me talking so much? Hugs...Skip/Steve Fm: :: Roy R. :: To: Skip D. Skip/Steve, That attitude of planning to "just let these things happen, and just to be me" is what I'm talking about in part when I say that gays are free to choose. You were taught to surpress those so-called feminine traits, but now have decided to simply be Steve. Good for you. Hugs, Roy Fm: Kent S. To: Skip D. Hi, Skip, I agree with what you said about acquiring some feminine characteristics; I've noticed it in myself... I don't know if I would flaunt it (just yet), but I do know that whenever I am in the company of other gays, I notice myself slowly picking up things--like the voice, the mannerisms, gestures, what have you. Since I'm something of a born mimic anyway, perhaps it creeps up in me more unconsciously than in others. I think, though, that maybe for some of us, these mannerisms _are_ natural, and that we have been hiding them; I would have said a few years ago that "of course I act straight," but, then again, I wouldn't have admitted I was gay, either! I have since been told by my parents that even as a kid I had--well, somewhat flighty hand motions, and other such actions that made them wonder, even back then. (Maybe that's why they took it so well when I came out?!) So now I don't try to deny myself the mannerisms, although I do realize that there are times when it may not be appropriate (I mean, I don't want to give my grandmother a heart attack!) --Hugs, Kent